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    •  
      CommentAuthorMadball (Advanced Member)
    • CommentTimeApr 16th 2016 edited
     
    Hello again! It's time for another Ludum Dare, and I'm using Phyard Builder aka CIE again.
    In 2 (or 3) days, I'll make a web game with a theme of "Shapeshift".
    Just made this post to grab your attention. If you are interested in following my progress, check out my [ref=http://ludumdare.com/compo/author/madball]LD profile[/ref]. (How do you do links? I forgot)

    My current idea is to make a 2D shooter, in which you can switch between top-down and side view at any point. I didn't finish my planning process yet, so that might change.
    This time though, I'm busy with other things than LD, so I'll have less time than usual.
    (Also, it's my first LD since I turned 18)-----------------
    LD35!
    •  
      CommentAuthorMathdude314 (Advanced Member)
    • CommentTimeApr 16th 2016
     
    Hello! Welcome to the forums!
    I see you have some experience retained from your previous life. Good luck, and may the best coder win!

    I really like your creative idea. You'll essentially be writing a 3D game, with the ability to switch between XZ and XY planes, right? Or is it the option to turn the gravity off?-----------------
    If less people are active, that will only make for even less activity. Start making those designs!
    Currently working on a one-round no-elimination quick RP game...
    •  
      CommentAuthorBioManiac R2 (Moderator)
    • CommentTimeApr 16th 2016
     
    I'm rather confused how the side view would work. Most 2D games have either top view or side view, as Mathdude said the top view using the XY plane and not being able to traverse in the Z direction, but the side view being able to move in the XZ direction but not in the Y direciton... To be able to switch between both at any point I do not quite understand how it would work.... The only game I can think of that I've played that does this already is the older Zelda games on the game boy advance, but it set which view you would be using for each room and you could not change when you wanted.... unless the side view also has a button to change the angle it looks? This would be quite difficult imo. Or perhaps you intend to do multiple rows in which the player hops between for the side view?
    •  
      CommentAuthorMadball (Advanced Member)
    • CommentTimeApr 16th 2016
     
    The first day is finished. I'm afraid it'll go like my earlier LDs, when I made games with original ideas but with so-so gameplay.
    Here is a demo:
    http://www.phyard.com/design/Madball...-----------------
    LD35!
    •  
      CommentAuthorTheDudeFromCI (Advanced Member)
    • CommentTimeApr 16th 2016
     
    @Madball
    I think the best way to approch this would be to have the game internally fully 3D, but only render the game in 2D, based on the camera angle. You could even go as far as making objects in the background appear, but be darkened, and slightly smaller so they look like they are in the distance.

    This way you'll be able to avoid resetting the characters's Z and Y locations every time you switch between the two angles. Also enemies would appear in 3D, so their locations could be tracked and stuff. Go around enemies in 3D would have a purpose. Do it this way will also allow you the option to have multiple side scroller obstacles in the same Z location, which will further push the concept of utilizing the top view to align yourself.-----------------
    Orange is my favorite number.
    •  
      CommentAuthorBioManiac R2 (Moderator)
    • CommentTimeApr 17th 2016
     
    This is interesting, although it is quite weird to see yourself change Y locations when going to the top view.

    It definitely could be done with rows, and you have to switch between rows in the side view to jump sideways.

    Although it is interesting this way because it forces you to have to switch views to be able to proceed... hmm..
    •  
      CommentAuthorMadball (Advanced Member)
    • CommentTimeApr 17th 2016
     
    @TheDudeFromCI: I though about it. It's too difficult to implement. I already tried to make 3D in CIE several times, and every time I hit some kind of obstacle. Even making enemies who can move the same way as you is close to impossible. Remember that I only have up to 2 days left.

    @BioManiac R2: Rows are already implemented, but I don't plan to use them often, as they make designing levels much more difficult.-----------------
    LD35!
    •  
      CommentAuthorMadball (Advanced Member)
    • CommentTimeApr 17th 2016
     
    New version is uploaded! Please, test it. I'm close to submitting it.
    http://www.phyard.com/design/Madball...-----------------
    LD35!
    •  
      CommentAuthorMadball (Advanced Member)
    • CommentTimeApr 17th 2016
     
    Finished the game!
    http://ludumdare.com/compo/ludum-dar...
    Yay!.. It's 4 AM here.-----------------
    LD35!
    •  
      CommentAuthorBioManiac R2 (Moderator)
    • CommentTimeApr 17th 2016
     
    I'm confused how the ending is supposed to be done properly. I can never get across without getting hurt :(

    Also only found 7 secrets. Kinda annoying how you can't go backwards at the end, I sorta got stuck in the one corner.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMadball (Advanced Member)
    • CommentTimeApr 18th 2016
     
    @BioManiac R2: Aha! That's what I expected! There are several ways, and all of them are proper. (Hopefully) you can't get stuck by going too far right. Unless you fall off the last cliff after climbing it.
    Also, it's nice to hear that secrets aren't obvious.-----------------
    LD35!
    •  
      CommentAuthorMathdude314 (Advanced Member)
    • CommentTimeApr 18th 2016
     
    5 comments. 5 potential users for CIF. None of them seem like a current member...-----------------
    If less people are active, that will only make for even less activity. Start making those designs!
    Currently working on a one-round no-elimination quick RP game...
    •  
      CommentAuthorTheDudeFromCI (Advanced Member)
    • CommentTimeApr 19th 2016
     
    @Mathdude
    Agreed.-----------------
    Orange is my favorite number.
    •  
      CommentAuthorBioManiac R2 (Moderator)
    • CommentTimeApr 19th 2016
     
    I feel Madball's levels are a good example on how CIE can be used to create intricate designs, but I do not feel they are a good reflection of what CIE actually is, and if someone else tried to use it with the intent of creating things that Madball made, they would end up confused, frustrated, and disappointed it wasn't as easy as he made it look...

    ... why is that?
    •  
      CommentAuthorTapir
    • CommentTimeApr 25th 2016
     
    CIE is function limited, but creative is unlimited. :)-----------------
    My games: Tapir Games
    My phyards: Tapir@phyard
    •  
      CommentAuthorMathdude314 (Advanced Member)
    • CommentTimeApr 25th 2016
     
    Sometime I should finish 1-2-3-Switch-----------------
    If less people are active, that will only make for even less activity. Start making those designs!
    Currently working on a one-round no-elimination quick RP game...
    •  
      CommentAuthorBioManiac R2 (Moderator)
    • CommentTimeApr 25th 2016
     
    I kinda wish you finished stuff more than you did start new stuff xD
    •  
      CommentAuthorTheDudeFromCI (Advanced Member)
    • CommentTimeApr 26th 2016
     
    Remember the when I made Friction Ball, and Tower Defense? xD Ah, the good old days.
    My two best designs.-----------------
    Orange is my favorite number.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMathdude314 (Advanced Member)
    • CommentTimeApr 26th 2016
     
    You didn't finish TD...? You said you'd have to finish the game before releasing it due to Revision Numbers... although admittedly you can delete revisions (now)...-----------------
    If less people are active, that will only make for even less activity. Start making those designs!
    Currently working on a one-round no-elimination quick RP game...
    •  
      CommentAuthorBioManiac R2 (Moderator)
    • CommentTimeApr 26th 2016
     
    lol you started over that thing so many times xD
    •  
      CommentAuthorTheDudeFromCI (Advanced Member)
    • CommentTimeApr 26th 2016
     
    Lol, yeah. xD

    No, I never finished it. But looking back, I think the first version was the best. I really don't remember why I kept starting over, actually.-----------------
    Orange is my favorite number.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMathdude314 (Advanced Member)
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2016 edited
     
    First it was the new-then clone feature.
    Then it was the scene feature and some other things you wanted.-----------------
    If less people are active, that will only make for even less activity. Start making those designs!
    Currently working on a one-round no-elimination quick RP game...
    •  
      CommentAuthorTheDudeFromCI (Advanced Member)
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2016
     
    Oh yeah, I think you're right. I remember now.
    In the editor's current state, making the Tower Defense game would take little work.

    CIE has made so many advances, it's crazy.
    Still makes me wonder how such a powerful editor doesn't have more attention.-----------------
    Orange is my favorite number.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMathdude314 (Advanced Member)
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2016
     
    Little work? You've seen what I have to do to make other things like MultiPlayers and my newest idea, a defense game. It takes lots of work because coding takes long. You have to write (this is taken DIRECTLY from a script):

    local[0:"aNumber"] = GetMass (in[0:"Physics Shape 1"], false)
    local[1:"Damage"] = Sqrt (in[8:"Normal Pulse"])
    local[1:"Damage"] = local[1:"Damage"] / local[0:"aNumber"]
    local[1:"Damage"] = local[1:"Damage"] * 3
    in[0:"Physics Shape 1"][0:"Object Durability"] = in[0:"Physics Shape 1"][0:"Object Durability"] - local[1:"Damage"]

    Context: On Post Collide. Every object has a Durability parameter that is by default 1e+22, basically invincible.

    When in another language like JavaScript, you can do
    var damage = physicsShape1.getMass() / sqrt(normalPulse) * 3;
    physicsShape1.durability -= damage;

    Or this script:

    local[0:"Durability Ratio"] = in[0:"The Entity"][0:"Object Durability"] / in[0:"The Entity"][0:"Default Durability"]
    local[0:"Durability Ratio"] = local[0:"Durability Ratio"] + 1
    local[0:"Durability Ratio"] = local[0:"Durability Ratio"] / 2
    SetAlpha(in[0:"The Entity"], local[0:"Durability Ratio"])
    local[1:"gone?"] = (in[0:"The Entity"][0:"Object Durability"] <= 0)
    If (local[1:"gone?"] == true)
      DestroyEntity (in[0:"The Entity"])
    End If

    Which could read:
    var ratio = theEntity.durability / theEntity.defaultDurability;
    theEntity.alpha = (ratio + 1) / 2
    if (ratio <= 0) {
      Destroy(theEntity);
    }-----------------
    If less people are active, that will only make for even less activity. Start making those designs!
    Currently working on a one-round no-elimination quick RP game...
    •  
      CommentAuthorMathdude314 (Advanced Member)
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2016
     
    And plus, if it would take little work, why don't you just try to make it?-----------------
    If less people are active, that will only make for even less activity. Start making those designs!
    Currently working on a one-round no-elimination quick RP game...
    •  
      CommentAuthorTheDudeFromCI (Advanced Member)
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2016
     
    Well, little work in comparison to how much work it took to do the origin versions.

    And yeah, I agree. That's basically my only complaint with the editor, and one of the reasons I don't use it very much. The line count is insane. And to write even a simple algorithm, you spend a good 5 minutes hunting and organizing clickable nodes, while typing the same script could be done in less than 30 seconds. If the editor had a type option, like embeded Javascript or something, I would likely be a lot more active. I've even tried several times to make a converter program that would compile Javascript and modify is the CIE source code file to add in those nodes directly. But I ran into several issues that took too much time to work around. Namely, learning how to correctly parse the CIE source code being a main one. xD Second, having to constantly import and export from a desktop application would take a while as well, especially for fine tuning. In the end, it would take just about as much time as it would to write in directly with nodes.

    I would remake the TD game, but I've been fairly busy with other projects. I've got my own engine at the moment I'm trying to gain momentum. :P It'll be many months before it's ready for developing full games. right now it's just "usable".-----------------
    Orange is my favorite number.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMadball (Advanced Member)
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2016
     
    The CIE is uncomfortable in some ways, but useful in others.
    I'm not home right now, but when I get back I plan to describe the making of this game in detail, especially the use of the editor. I think I have more to say than just a comment.-----------------
    LD35!
    •  
      CommentAuthorTheDudeFromCI (Advanced Member)
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2016
     
    Cool, I'll be waiting.-----------------
    Orange is my favorite number.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMathdude314 (Advanced Member)
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2016
     
    So Madball, are you getting high ratings in the LD?-----------------
    If less people are active, that will only make for even less activity. Start making those designs!
    Currently working on a one-round no-elimination quick RP game...
    •  
      CommentAuthorBioManiac R2 (Moderator)
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2016
     
    *eagerly awaits Madball's explanation*
    •  
      CommentAuthorTheDudeFromCI (Advanced Member)
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2016
     
    That must be a really bus ride home!-----------------
    Orange is my favorite number.
    •  
      CommentAuthorBioManiac R2 (Moderator)
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2016
     
    "a really bus ride"
    •  
      CommentAuthorMathdude314 (Advanced Member)
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2016 edited
     
    BioManiac R2, if you knew what TheDudeFromCI was going to saay, would you have moderator-edited his post?-----------------
    If less people are active, that will only make for even less activity. Start making those designs!
    Currently working on a one-round no-elimination quick RP game...
    •  
      CommentAuthorTheDudeFromCI (Advanced Member)
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2016 edited
     
    What if I meant to say it, exactly as I did? Huh? Huh?!
    You can't just edit people's posts, bro.

    It is, after all, a really bus ride.




    (That was a joke.)-----------------
    Orange is my favorite number.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMadball (Advanced Member)
    • CommentTimeMay 1st 2016 edited
     
    @Mathdude314: Voting isn't over yet, I don't know my ratings.
    @TheDudeFromCI: I never told I'm using a bus. I'm using a train.

    Now that I'm back, I can finally write whatever I wanted. I'll explain all technical stuff and complain about everything I feel like complaining about.
    So, here's my hastily written essay with no plan behind it whatsoever, so I'll probably end up finishing it in the following comments:
    (Feel free to ask questions)

    Let's start: Shortcuts are... worth complaining about. I remember Tapir removing an extremely useful "G" for glue shortcut, but I wiped my tears and kept silent. Then, he put a "D" for delete shortcut, and that is horrible. Never ever in my life I feel betrayed as much, as when clicking "Play" and then "D" to move right, I realize that "D" deleted one of my triggers. Especially when I realize it several minutes later.


    The theme was "Shapeshift".
    I had it in my head for a long time actually. What if you had a game that can be played in several genres simultaneously, I though once? And so, I adapted this idea to be suitable for a 48-hour compo.


    I don\'t think I need to explain it. Thanks to CIE and its physics engine, making movement is a piece of cake. Especially after making it a thousand times already.
    If you happen to hold down and be above a wooden platform, it turns into a sensor, and vice versa.


    Side view:
    What you actually see in-game is physicless tiles. What really matters is invisible solid blocks behind them. Each one has a collision category that specifies if it\'s a platform. CCs are only for triggers, they aren\'t used to alter collisions.
    Top view:
    The same, tiles is only facade. Various areas are invisible solid blocks, again, with corresponding CCs. When you "shift" into an area, it turns sensor, and a border appears, matching that area in size. The border is actually a hollow rectangle.
    But how?
    Every rectangle, except for ground in the side view, has an ID assigned to it. Whenever you "shift" standing on one of them, another one with the same ID is found, and you teleport right on top/inside of it.
    How do I set IDs? Via border color. An old trick I used back in "Spin`n`Roll".
    There should be a way to change initial custom entity properties for each entity via it\\'s setting panel. That would get rid of silly (I\'d say \'hilarious\') methods of using CCs/border colors/densities/other properties not designed for that usage.


    Nope. Didn\'t happen. I planned to make it a shooter, but it turned out close to impossible. I blame not only my high goals, but inflexible physics as well. I figured out that to make an enemy use wooden platforms, I would need to either make a lot of platforms, or a lot of CCs. And to make enemies use the hollow border rectangles individually, I would need a lot of those borders, and a lot of CCs as well.
    You can see these problems even without enemies. Being in top view, you can\'t get inside other area rectangles, even when logically they are supposed to be below you.
    I don\'t if it\'s the problem of the engine or the CIE, but *complains angrily*.


    I abandoned the enemies, but I still wanted to make a challenging game. So, I made circular saws. Totally inspired by Super Meat Boy.
    How?
    They were quickly drawn by MCC\'s old but still working CI shape maker and put in as a module. Now, physics.
    A saw is a sensor that is constantly teleported to make it look like it moves between two points. How do I set these points? Well, each moving saw is initially two saws: the beginning point saw and the ending point saw. They have the density of 2n and 2n+1 correspondingly, starting from 6 and 7, because 5 is initial for every shape. I go through all objects with density greater than 5, put them in an array, and then replace every other one with a 4-point subarray, containing the segment of movement. Finally, each step each not deleted yet saw interpolates within that segment.
    Couldn\\'t you do anything simpler?
    I wanted to keep What You See Is What You Get, which is one of the best CIE features.
    But still, the simplest solution I can think about is setting individual custom entity properties without triggers. Which can\'t be done.


    Tiles took about 25% of my compo time and about MANY% of my mood and productivity.
    Just set the texture from the rectangle settings panel!
    Well... I think you know that doesn\'t work.
    Just put tiles by hand!
    No. I don\'t want to spend my entire life making one level. More than that, repetitive entities in the editor make it difficult to click actually meaningful ones.
    Then, assemble them into larger modules!

    Step 1: Make an assembled module out of a loaded image.
    Step 2: Make an even bigger assembles module out of several previous modules.
    Step 3: Repeat.
    Step 4: Put the result into a level.
    Step 5: Reload the initial image.
    Step 6: Profit.
    And by profit I mean incredible lag.

    OK, what did you do?
    I could\'ve used, for example, TileIt. I made it a while ago, and the tile problem wasn\'t solved since then.
    Instead, I made this complex algorithm that only uses 216 tiles per view, and puts left ones to the right as you progress.
    It was lucky that I decided to stop you from scrolling left, that would make the algorithm much more difficult.
    In the end, I had a hand-made 7200-character long file of 0-9s and A-Vs (Luckily, the alphabet was enough), accompanied with a lookup table of what symbol means what.

    Ineffective? Meh.
    Remember "Doodle escape", my MiniLD 33 game from a while ago? I wrote all the pencil movement patterns by hand, without any feedback except for running the game. Now that\\'s ineffective.

    By the way, free divide is a pain in whatever part of the body you can think of. But even more painful is a "Given a number X, return a "Module#X" module" function. I had to modify the source code to finish it quickly.
    Tiles are... close to impossible


    I didn\'t talk about many features of the game, but I mentioned the most problematic ones.
    I didn\'t talk about my design philosophies for this game, I mentioned then in my LD profile though.
    But I want to talk about one more thing: as Tapir mentioned, the creativity is unlimited, and it\'s a must-have for a CIE programmer, because otherwise you\'ll be like "idk how can even I do that, ah crap, forget it, let\'s go look at some kitten photos instead".

    I\\'ve seen countless game editors without text-editor-like coding (Construct, Scratch, Stencyl). Well, CIE doesn\\'t allow us to make mathematical formulas short, but I remember Xyuzhg making a comfortable formula parser a while ago.
    I\\'ve seen Puzzlescript (take a look: http://www.puzzlescript.net/ ), which is a completely mind-blowing game editor. The most mind-blowing fact is that it\\'s actually used to make games. If you can make games with Puzzlescript, you can make them with CIE for sure.
    How is CIE worse than them? (Expect for all the problems I mentioned in my post)
    Well, I can only say for myself. I can make a game with anything that has logic in it. That means, if I make games with CIE, it doesn\\'t mean everybody can.
    But if everybody were me, then CIE wouldn\\'t be worse than other game editors.

    I have no idea for how long I\\'m gonna be here. This is my last year in school, this autumn I\\'ll be in an university, so my plans are only plans, I can\\'t predict anything for sure.
    OK, let\\'s finish it. If keep monologuing about any kind of future, that will take a lot of text. Maybe next time.

    -----------------
    LD35!
    •  
      CommentAuthorMathdude314 (Advanced Member)
    • CommentTimeMay 2nd 2016
     
    "using CCs/border colors/densities/other properties not designed for that usage" Oh yeah. I've used alpha, density, friction, and perhaps something like rotation to a VERY small amount (e.g. 0.00042 to store the number 42).

    Thanks for the idea. For my purposes, density, friction, restitution, border/bg colors and opacity, CCs, and alpha are unusable. What should I do?-----------------
    If less people are active, that will only make for even less activity. Start making those designs!
    Currently working on a one-round no-elimination quick RP game...
    •  
      CommentAuthorTheDudeFromCI (Advanced Member)
    • CommentTimeMay 2nd 2016
     
    Lol, yeah, I remember back when I did the Tower Defense game, I stored the enemies health in their alpha. xD

    But you guys do know the editor has an option to store object-specific data, right?



    Browse around the triggers in that.
    The bounce counts are stored in entity variables. No global variables, CC hacks, rotation hacks, etc.-----------------
    Orange is my favorite number.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMadball (Advanced Member)
    • CommentTimeMay 2nd 2016
     
    I wouldn't recommend using float values to store integers, as small floats lose precision.

    @TheDudeFromCI: Yeah, I know about that, but I want to have a different initial value for every shape, and making an individual code line for every one is tedious.

    The way triggers work is: whenever there is an entity referenced, you see its ID and type. But you can't remember all the IDs, so you have to look it up from outside the code editor every time. And if you delete/add an entity, it makes things even more complicated.

    A good solution I can think of is: storing the values in the custom variables, and initializing them with text boxes. For each invisible text box, we look for the closest entity, and convert the text to that entity's variable. It might sound overcomplicated, but it's easy to set up (except for converting text to whatever value types), and you always see what shape has what entity. I don't know how that's gonna end up though, I just made this idea up. (Again, creativity in the most unexpected places)-----------------
    LD35!
    •  
      CommentAuthorMathdude314 (Advanced Member)
    • CommentTimeMay 2nd 2016
     
    Well, that leaves me with... linear velocity... really?
    We've been wanting this for a long while! Setting properties directly on the shape settings box!-----------------
    If less people are active, that will only make for even less activity. Start making those designs!
    Currently working on a one-round no-elimination quick RP game...
    •  
      CommentAuthorTapir
    • CommentTimeMay 3rd 2016
     
    @Madball,
    the tricks to utilizing the strongs and avoid the limits of CIE if cool!

    yes, I also often feel there are many inconveniences in CIE.
    Generally the reasons I haven't fixed the inconveniences:
    - I'm lazy, :D
    - I haven't found a decent implementation yet.
    - Some parts of CIE need refactoring. The later refactorings may remove the temporary fixes. Sometimes the temporary fixes may even increase the dev hours for later refactorings.

    Ok, after 11 months interruption, I decide to resume the CIE development.
    (I found I at least made one code commit every month before the interruption, :))
    The first change will be removing the D shortcut. :)
    Entity custom property settings may be the next.-----------------
    My games: Tapir Games
    My phyards: Tapir@phyard
    •  
      CommentAuthorMathdude314 (Advanced Member)
    • CommentTimeMay 3rd 2016
     
    I've found the D shortcut helpful, but I guess if it's really causing problems, throw it away. Give the G shortcut back too.-----------------
    If less people are active, that will only make for even less activity. Start making those designs!
    Currently working on a one-round no-elimination quick RP game...
    •  
      CommentAuthorTheDudeFromCI (Advanced Member)
    • CommentTimeMay 3rd 2016
     
    Woo! CIE is back online. xD

    By the way, Tapir, how's life?-----------------
    Orange is my favorite number.
    •  
      CommentAuthorTapir
    • CommentTimeMay 10th 2016
     
    shortcuts changed. (D and G)

    > how's life?
    I don't know how to describe it accurately.
    Most times, it goes on with inertia.
    But we all know, it will change at a time.-----------------
    My games: Tapir Games
    My phyards: Tapir@phyard
    •  
      CommentAuthorTheDudeFromCI (Advanced Member)
    • CommentTimeMay 10th 2016
     
    Well, I hope that means that things are working in your favor. If things aren't, then I hope they get better soon.-----------------
    Orange is my favorite number.